Conviction and Compassion: How to Have Hard Conversations

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Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.

Matt Abrahams: Having crucial, critical constructive conversations can be challenging for all of us. Today we’ll discuss how to make those easier. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I am super excited to chat with Irv Grousbeck. Irv was the co-founder and co-director of the GSB Center for Entrepreneurial Studies, which he helped run for 20 years, and he is the co-author of the textbook New Business Ventures and the Entrepreneur. He teaches Conversations in Management for the GSB and for 10 years he taught Managing Difficult Conversations at Stanford Medical School. He co-founded Continental Cable Vision, later called Media One. He serves on numerous boards and is an owner of the Boston Celtics basketball team. Irv, thanks so much for joining me. I am super excited for our conversation.

Irv Grousbeck: Matt, thanks for asking me. It’s a treat to be here.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Shall we get started?

Irv Grousbeck: Let’s do.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent. You’ve spent a lot of time as an entrepreneur thinking about entrepreneurship and teaching about it. To your mind, what are the key ingredients, ideas, and actions that lead to success in entrepreneurship?

Irv Grousbeck: Well, Matt, an entrepreneur to our way of thinking is someone who is looking for opportunity without regard to the resources that he or she currently controls. So many people think, gosh, I don’t have much money. I’m going to wait some time. I’m going to build up a little money and then I’ll be able to find a business to start or buy and invest in and I’m not going to do that now. And then time passes by if they think about it that they aren’t the capital supplier, they’re just the opportunity finder. Then the second key to me is to be sure that you get comfortable with the domain that you’re in. Now, what’s a domain? Healthcare is not a domain. It’s a whole aggregation of domains, but back office support for hospitals is a domain. There’s an old adage that we like to remind students about, which is when great management meets a bad business, the business always wins.

Matt Abrahams: I love that idea of being an opportunity finder and looking for the right domains, and I think that applies in daily life and in the decisions we make. What are myths or counterintuitive ideas that you want people to know about entrepreneurship?

Irv Grousbeck: Well, there’s a common perception that still lingers among many people, that entrepreneurs are a certain personality type, they’re bombastic and they are attracted to risk and they’re egotistical. And indeed the best entrepreneurs are antithetical to that. They are thoughtful people who try to shrink every possible modicum of risk out of what they’re doing and further to be sure the risk they must assume or choose to assume is execution sensitive rather than what the economists would call exogenous or uncontrollable.

Matt Abrahams: Do you think entrepreneurs are born or can they be made?

Irv Grousbeck: A lot of people think 300 hitters in baseball are born, but boy, some of them get there by hard work and that’s how I feel about entrepreneurs. I had no idea I would be an entrepreneur. I wasn’t exposed to any growing up, I didn’t even understand or think about that path. So was it in me all the time? I don’t know. I’d rather suspect not, but I came to it and I think so many of our students I’ve tracked over the years feel the same way.

Matt Abrahams: I believe that all of us can become more entrepreneurial if we allow ourselves and we surround ourselves with the opportunities and the people who can help you teach courses both at the Graduate School of Business and the Stanford Medical School where you used to teach that help students with challenging situations. Of all the various communication challenges you work on with your students, what is one that is most difficult for them to handle and what coaching do you provide them to help them with that?

Irv Grousbeck: I think a difficult one is when they are in a tough conversation and new information comes to light, they don’t change position because they worry about how they look and indeed, if they think about serving the organization, they need to change position and if it’s too hard to change position right there in the spot, the next important thing to do is to tell the person, let’s take a deep breath here. I need to reflect on this new information. Let’s meet tomorrow at nine o’clock and continue this conversation. So certainly changing position is difficult, difficult for all of us, but particularly difficult starting out when many students as entrepreneurs have the imposter syndrome. A second one is really hard for students to be brief, especially when they’re uncertain and nervous about the context and the person on the other side of the desk and what they’re saying. They tend to be elliptical to repeat themselves, brevity conveys conviction. Getting them to say it in a third of the words is something we often ask them during class. And finally I would say it’s really hard for students not to make difficult conversations all about them rather than all about the other person. Difficult conversations are really very little about the person who’s the initiator of the conversation. In most cases, focusing on the issue and the other person and his or her needs is counterintuitive.

Matt Abrahams: Those are three really important bits of advice that you gave that we have to not allow our entrenched or previous position to lock us into a way of thinking, especially when new information comes to us. Brevity and allowing ourselves to be other-focused rather than self-focused in these critical conversations is so important. You mentioned the notion of imposter syndrome. I’d love to get your perspective on that. A lot of people listening in my myself included, I have times or bouts of imposter syndrome. How do you help people think about that and perhaps avoid falling into that trap?

Irv Grousbeck: I’ve simply said, you’re well qualified to be in the position you’re in. The reason you feel that way may be that you haven’t done it before, but you’re in a position to do it, and so dig in and do the best you can and that will most oftentimes be sufficient.

Matt Abrahams: I think that notion, that novelty plays a lot into it. This is the first time I’ve done this or I don’t have that experience to rely on and reminding yourself that that’s okay, and in fact the opportunity is there because of the successes and traits that you demonstrate.

Irv Grousbeck: Yeah, it’s okay and it’s normal. It’s normal to feel that way.

Matt Abrahams: Many of the topics that you teach your students can be very provocative and anxiety provoking. How do you help your students manage those various communication situations that you present them with?

Irv Grousbeck: So our students we’re lucky enough to be teaching smart students and if you tee up a problem and ask the students to give you some answers to how that problem might be solved, they’ll probably come up with pretty good answers despite their lack of experience. And then you say, well, that involves talking to so-and-so so how would you begin that conversation? Blank looks appear. It’s so hard to translate recommendations into effective action. Many students say, Hey, how was your weekend? Well, that doesn’t set quite the right tone. This isn’t a jolly social conversation. This is serious stuff that we want to work on together. And so helping them start that conversation once they get into it, they can probably get going, but setting the tone, setting the first few you’re going to say is really helpful for them.

Matt Abrahams: Do you have specific ways you like to suggest that people start these challenging situations? Certain words or phrases or just things to think about that could give us guidance?

Irv Grousbeck: The magic word in many of these conversations is we, if you can have a difficult conversation in which both you and the other person are looking together at the problem or set of issues and trying to find a solution that works for both parties, it makes it non adversarial or at least lowers the temperature as opposed to you’re missing quota, you’ve got to do better or we’ll have to let you go. If I knew, let’s assume as a salesperson, if I knew how to do it, I would have already done it. I need help as opposed to I’m going to work with you consistently over the next two months. It’ll be obvious both to you and me whether we’re successful together and I think we will be. If not, we’ll have to part ways, but I don’t expect that to happen. Well, that’s a conversation that is a shot across the bow, but it also says, I’m going to work shoulder to shoulder with you as opposed to go out there and do better.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. It’s very collaborative. It sounds like you and I have a similar approach to these situations where we need to see them as opportunities to problem solve through collaboration versus just declarations and it can really make a big difference. I know you use Role-playing as a means to teach the skills that you teach and helping people to deal with these difficult conversations. Would you be willing to put me through one of these role plays and coach me as if I were one of your students?

Irv Grousbeck: Oh good. Well, we’ll have some fun. So you are Sarah Wilsey, athletic director of the fictitious National University. You manage 32 sports, you have a team of 60 excluding the coaches. You have four associate athletic directors of which I Tom Steele am one. So I had a successful career. I’m a mid-career person. I had a successful career as a division three athletic director and I came to national hoping to find a division one ad job. Your position became open and I applied for it, but I lost the position in favor of you. So you have received three independent reports from people in your group whom you respect, and those reports all say that I’m badmouthing you behind your back, I’m criticizing you, I’m criticizing your decisions, and I’m a real negative influence around here. And so you’ve gone to your executive coach and said, what do I do? And the executive coach says, you have to have a conversation with Tom Steele.

Matt Abrahams: You don’t joke around Irv. That’s a potent situation. I’m questioning my desire to do this.

Irv Grousbeck: So this is a puncture in the culture. Yes. At GSB, we talk an awful lot about culture and we talk about the leader of the organization being the culture carrier. Part of that responsibility is to repair punctures in the culture.

Matt Abrahams: So I would be thinking about going into this situation. I would be thinking about what’s my objective and my objective is one, I want to make it very clear that this is causing issues within the culture. And second, I want to make it clear that I am here in support of Tom, but that the expectation is that Tom will be supportive of the culture and if there are issues that he has with me or the organization that he will bring them up.

Irv Grousbeck: That’s a perfect summary of your goals. Good. We’re off to a good start.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you, Tom. It’s come to my attention that you are expressing concern about the way I’m doing things. Part of my

Irv Grousbeck: Wait, who told you that?

Matt Abrahams: We have a very open culture here and I expect and ask for people to give me feedback and insight into what’s working and what’s not working. And several in the organization have presented conversations where they have heard you talk about disagreeing with or in some cases actually insulting my actions.

Irv Grousbeck: You mean I don’t get to know who my accusers are? This is a sort of a blindside. I don’t understand this.

Matt Abrahams: Well, I’m surprised that you see this as a blindside. We have a culture here where you and I give each other feedback all the time. My goal here is for us to focus on the relationship you and I have and the role that you fulfill within this organization and the impact that your thoughts and actions have. And together, I believe we can come up with a way to not only help you voice your ideas and opinions in a way that I can hear them and direct, but also to continue the culture that we together are building.

Irv Grousbeck: I think you’re doing a great job and I actually dunno what you’re talking about.

Matt Abrahams: Well, to me, I’ve heard in a few instances that when we talked about our new program to offer further education for some of our new members of our team, that you thought that that was a waste of time that they would learn most by being on the job.

Irv Grousbeck: Okay. Okay. I understand. Well, I want to make one thing clear. Never ever have I criticized you personally. Now as far as the education initiative goes, you remember that when we discussed it in advance, I didn’t think it was a good idea and yet it was put into place. And so I’ve simply commented that I didn’t agree with a decision. I mean, I don’t understand exactly why isn’t that normal?

Matt Abrahams: It is absolutely normal and appropriate to share opinions and ideas. The tone and timing of those opinions are important and then they can convey information As a respected leader on this team, you and all of us in the leadership role need to be very thoughtful about when we voice our concerns and opinions. We are role modeling at all times the culture that we want to be and I hope that you feel comfortable sharing your opinion. I just want to make sure that we don’t create an adversarial relationship because I am fully supportive of the work you do for us and I have seen the value that you bring to this organization.

Irv Grousbeck: Okay, well I understand and I’m in agreement with that. I guess my lips are sealed after the decision. Regardless of how I feel about it, I’ll have to suppress my views.

Matt Abrahams: I certainly don’t want anybody on this team suppressing their views, but I do want us to be all thoughtful about how our views and how we communicate those views might have a broader impact. Great. Wow. You are good. Or I am sweating as we have this conversation, share with me the feedback about how I did or the things that I could do differently or better. I’d love to learn as your students do.

Irv Grousbeck: For me, I thought you were extraordinary. I thought it was very polished, yet substantive. This is an actual vignette we teach in class. A couple of things I would’ve added would include if I kept denying, I would use a phrase like, well, we need to get past denial and talk about the future. So please bring your disagreement after the decision is made only to me. Otherwise it looks like badmouthing the decision and maybe me, even though I know that’s not your intent, and then you could have added in at the very end, and this is kind of frosting on the cake. Look, Tom, I want and need your support. I think I’m in a position to support you in your own career goals of becoming a division one athletic director. I hear of a lot of opportunities and openings. I’m in a position to tell you about them and also to write you letters of referral. I can’t do that unless we’re working together. So you’re really at a crossroads here. I hope we can close ranks. I do respect you. You add a lot of value here. If we can’t close ranks, it’s going to be necessary to part ways.

Matt Abrahams: I really take to heart that notion of naming the behavior that I’m seeing in our conversation was purposefully not naming some of the things because I was trying not to make the person defensive. If I were to say denial, I felt that might cause the person to be defensive. But in hearing how you said it, I actually see how it punctuates the point and coming to the end of the conversation and being very clear about what’s needed, closing the ranks and the fact that I can support you, but if this doesn’t work, we might have to reevaluate. Very helpful. We’ve talked a lot about talking and what we say. I’m curious to get your opinion on listening. What’s the value of listening in these crucial conversations and what advice do you have to help people listen better?

Irv Grousbeck: I often compare persuading, which is an essential quality of leadership with salesmanship and no one ever bought anything while you were talking, so say what you’re going to say and pause pauses, show respect. They show respect that I want to hear what you want to say and I want to stop talking and I don’t wish to dominate this conversation. Open space is really the ally of the person conducting the conversation.

Matt Abrahams: We often talk about listening as getting the information you need so that you can process and then communicate, but listening as you’ve just shared, demonstrates openness, demonstrates a willingness to listen and seating the floor and showing I value what you have to say. We are a careers podcast and I know you have advice for people who are choosing careers or considering changing careers. What career guidance can you share with our listeners?

Irv Grousbeck: I think in terms of paths, and I often say to the student, I know this is a daunting question and you don’t need to answer it now, but it might be useful to go back and think about where you’d like to be in 10 years. I’m thinking as much about context as I am about domain or sub-industry. I’m thinking, do you want to be in charge? Do you want to be one of several partners in charge? Which side of the river are you on operator or advisor? Are you a consultant, investment banker, commercial banker, other advisor, or are you running a business or part of a business? That first decision is one that many of our students have not made yet. Thinking about context is particularly useful because it rules out part of the world. Well, I don’t think I necessarily want to be the managing partner, but I’d like to be a partner and so forth.

Well, you’ve just ruled out enormous parts of the world. Now come back to where you are and say, what are logical paths to get there? What do I need to do to get there? If I want to be on the operating side of the river, it’s not useful for me to get more analytical experience. I was a good before I got to business school. Now I’m an even better analyst. Do I need to do more analysis? No. What do I need to do to be an operator? Well, how about I get into some sort of operating position where I have to do some work of a certain quality or perhaps over a short period of time I get to hire some people and supervise them. So let’s not go over to the other side if we don’t want to be on that side. And we’ve already been on it for a long time yet. It’s amazing how many people take what they perceive to be the safe route for the first time. Perversely in their careers. There is no safe route. There are risks at whatever they choose. There was no risk in what college they went to. They got to go to any one of four wonderful colleges. Same with business school, most likely. Same with the jobs in between.

Matt Abrahams: This idea of thinking about the future and considering the context to help us make decisions. So many of us play to our strengths in our comfort zone and the advice you’re giving us is to take ourselves out of that and look and be more strategic. Exactly. So Irv, as we close, I’d like to ask you three questions. One I make up just for you and two, I ask all my guests, are you up for that? I am. As a teacher myself, I know that while we impart lots of information, we also learn a tremendous amount from our students. I’m curious, what is something you’ve learned or continue to learn from your students that you find helpful?

Irv Grousbeck: I’m constantly reminded. Be careful in the words I choose irrespective of how supposedly good at this I am. I’m always trying to be better and to choose a better word or a better tone, be more sensitive. They constantly remind me to be that way. Some of their reminders are negative examples, but amazingly, and one of the attractions of teaching is that I actually learn a lot from their phrasing occasionally and their sensitivity. I got an email the other day from a student with a little sort of reminder, if you will, at the bottom, try to be kind whenever it’s possible. It’s always possible.

Matt Abrahams: I’m curious, for our second question, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

Irv Grousbeck: I’m a great Warren Buffet fan. I think Warren Buffet has all of the elements of a great communicator. He can be whimsical, light, he’s direct. Now have I seen him in a lot of difficult conversations? No, a few where shareholders ask barbed questions from the floor, but not very many. I come away from those conversations thinking, boy, what a nice person he is, how smart he is, and how thoughtful he is about new things that he says. I picked up a phrase that he said, we should always be redefining the edge of our competence.

Matt Abrahams: What a wonderful idea. Warren Buffett is very approachable, yet you absolutely do not question his credibility. Final question for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

Irv Grousbeck: Directness with respect. So many of our students feel quite properly that if you’re direct with someone, somehow that’s harsh. The art of good conversation management I think does involve directness and respect at the same time. The second would be strength with warmth, and by strength I don’t mean power, I mean decisiveness, but I want to convey my decisiveness. Not like I am putting down a fiat that they have to follow, but that this is the path that makes the most sense and I’d be glad to talk with them about it. I’m soliciting their support for it and I respect what they’ve done. I think that those two can go hand in hand and that is definitely something that the students resist at first. The third one is don’t mistake vagueness for compassion. Being vague with somebody is actually not being compassionate, and that’s particularly true in medical situations where they really want to know where they stand and they deserve to know where they stand in the kindest way. That’s true in business settings as well. I think of difficult conversation management as a performance art. I don’t go into a difficult conversation unless I’ve actually said the words in advance. I have talking points. Talking points do not suffice. It’s a practice art. I’m not going to go out and play the violin in front of people unless I have the peace rehearsed.

Matt Abrahams: So much richness there. Many of us want to be nice and kind, and sometimes that impacts what we really need to do in the circumstance. And I’ll end by simply saying, I 100% agree. Communication is something you have to practice. It’s not just talking points. It’s not just thinking through things in your head. You actually have to practice the words coming out of your mouth before you enter into the situation. Irv, this has been fantastic. Thank you for your masterclass on communication.

Irv Grousbeck: It’s been a pleasure. Matt. You’re doing great work here. Thank you for including me.

Matt Abrahams: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast from Stanford Graduate School of Business. This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Reilly, and me Matt Abrahams. For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. Finally, find us on social media at Stanfordgsb.