Listen Up, Leaders: A Record-Setting Coach’s Guide to Communication

Full Transcript

Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.

Matt Abrahams: All of us can be better in our personal and our professional lives if we work together and have the guidance of a good coach.

My name’s Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

[00:00:18]
Today, I am thrilled to speak with Tara VanDerveer. Tara served as Stanford University’s women’s basketball coach for thirty-eight years, she retired in 2024. Under her leadership, Tara led Stanford to three national championships and amassed the most wins of any basketball coach, men’s or women’s. Beyond Stanford, she coached the U.S. national team to Olympic gold in 1996 and wrote the book Shooting From the Outside.

Tara, congratulations on your success and thanks so much for joining me. I have enjoyed watching so many Stanford women’s basketball games over all these years. I look forward to our conversation.

Tara VanDerveer: Thank you, Matt. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent. Should we get started?

Tara VanDerveer: Sure.

[00:00:59]
Matt Abrahams: Great. Trust and openness to feedback are essential for success of any team, especially a sports team. How do you foster a supportive environment where people are comfortable being challenged and pushing themselves?

Tara VanDerveer: Matt, that’s a great question. And I think that trust and openness is really the foundation of any relationship and coaching is really important to have a great relationship. Everyone is someone’s sister and to really care about the players you coach, to really care about the people you work with, whether it’s your staff, or your assistants, or even a manager, or anyone that you meet, really is the most important thing.

And so the relationships that you have with your players and the communication that you have with them, really will determine your success as a coach. And I’m really fortunate I’ve had great players, but I’ve also had great relationships with the players I’ve coached.

[00:01:52]
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that. I’ve done a lot of work recently on how to speak clearly and concisely in the moment, off the cuff. And it seems to me that as a coach during the game, you have to be a master of this. Be it talking to your team during a brief timeout, during a really important moment, or making your case to a referee. What has helped you accomplish your communication goals in those moments when you have little time to prepare, the stakes are high, and you have to get your message across?

Tara VanDerveer: I think that that is really important, especially making adjustments in games. In game adjustments, halftime adjustments. It’s really critical to have the right message and be concise. I call it putting out the biggest fire. So what is hurting us the most in the game? Are we not getting back on defense? Are we not getting on the boards, rebounding? Are we taking bad shots? And so, for me, it’s identifying what one thing that I need everyone to focus on, or if it’s maybe a three minute timeout, then I could go two things, or maybe even three things. And at halftime, no more than five. So, it’s really making sure that we’re getting the message across, this is exactly what I need you to do, and this is how I need you to do it.

And then, as far as the referees go, as long as they can’t read my mind, we’re okay with them. I try to think of the officials in our games as part of the game and they’re trying to help the game be, you know, make it a great game. But sometimes you just want to pull your hair out.

[00:03:15]
Matt Abrahams: So what I hear there is that part of what you’re doing is you’re being very conscious of how you use that time efficiently and you’re prioritizing what’s the most important, what’s on fire, as you said. And I think many of us, when we have to speak in the moment, can start from that bottom line. What’s the initiation point? And it sounds like also you’re thinking about the duration of time you have, and then you adjust the number of items that you talk about in that amount of time. And many of us in the moment, we feel such pressure that we just start talking and it comes out in a garbled way that might not be really succinct.

Tara VanDerveer: I get a lot of help actually from my assistant coaches too. So as the team is maybe coming over to the bench, a lot of coaches kind of make this big, you know, big huddle and everything. I don’t do that, but I listen to my assistants and I’ll just say, what do they need to know? What does our team need to know?

[00:04:02]
Matt Abrahams: So the other point there is that as a leader in those moments of high stakes and pressure, listening to others who can give you advice and guidance is a good point. I don’t want to let this thing with the ref go away just yet. Framing the involvement of everybody in the communication is important. And if you see the ref as an enemy, that’s going to change the way you communicate. But if you see the referee as somebody who’s actually helping the game be played, that might change what you say in those moments. And I think all of us can look at that.

Tara VanDerveer: You know what, Matt? I thought this was pretty funny, actually. You know, I’ve only gotten three technicals in basically forty-eight years of coaching, I never got a technical with the Olympic team. But, uh, three technicals in that amount of time is pretty rare. But I also went, in one of my last games, I had a referee want to take a picture with me. And I thought that was a great compliment. I view them as part of the team. They’re working on having women’s basketball be a great entertainment, have it be fun, have it be safe. So I view them as part of the team.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent. And again, for those who aren’t well versed in basketball, a technical foul is a foul where there’s a violation called by the referee because some rule or something inappropriate has been done, and a player can do that, a coach can do that. The fact that you’ve only had three is amazing.

[00:05:14]
Tara VanDerveer: I know, I really try to coach in practice, not wait for the game to then throw out new ideas or get on players or even get on the ref. So it’s not getting too emotional.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. That leads to my next question, which is about motivation and focus. How do you motivate a team during hard, challenging times, like after several defeats? And on the other side of that, how do you keep a team focused on continuing to work and push themselves after lots of successes? How do you play with those different emotions and keep people motivated and focused?

[00:05:45]
Tara VanDerveer: Well, if you have too many losses, you’re not worried about it because you’re fired. But I think one of the things I learned early on in my career, we had three games that were against really big teams when I was coaching at Ohio State, and we lost the first game.

And I remember coming into practice the next day, we’re going to work so hard. And, you know, I’m like, it shouldn’t take a loss to change how you do things. So I really kind of changed in midstream. We ended up winning the next two games, which was great. But I decided to develop a routine that no matter what happened in the game, after the game we have a routine where each coach will write up an individual feedback sheet for each player.

So you would get a feedback sheet like, Matt, you did three great things, you rebounded really well, you ran the floor really hard, and you know, you made your free throws. Um, but on defense, let’s work on keeping your player in front of you or, you know, there might be something else, you know, passing the ball, you had people open. So that we give them feedback instead of coming in and after you lose and yelling and carrying on.

[00:06:41]
And the second thing we will do is, as a team, we’ll have a goal sheet. And we go through this goal sheet that’s the same after every game. And what did we shoot from the free throw line? Field goal percentage? Did we hold a player under seventeen points per game? And so we have basically ten goals that we go through and we try to identify if we in fact get all those goals, and we’re going to be successful.

And then the next thing we do is watch a highlight tape. And don’t miss a highlight. Someone will let you know. And it’s watching, you know, the good highlights of good things we do. And it, everyone likes the highlights. And then we do a teaching tape, things that we want to do better. So we’ve developed that routine after a win or a loss. And our challenge in the game is not to necessarily beat the other team. The other team is there to help us be a great team. It’s to be the best team we can be.

[00:07:26]
Matt Abrahams: There are so many things you said in that answer. I want to comment on first, what you ended your answer with, I think, is a really amazing frame for people to think about when they go into contentious situations.

Maybe it’s not on a basketball court. Maybe it’s a negotiation. Maybe it’s some kind of conflict. That you see the other team’s job is to help you be better. It’s not your job to defeat the other team. It’s your job to learn and grow and become better. And I think that is an amazing reframe and something that could help all of us in our communication.

I heard you mention several times, this notion of routine. And you and I have had some conversation before we got on the recording here, the routines important to you. And it sounds like routine helps you both when things are going really well and when things aren’t going so well. And you even mentioned earlier that you have a routine in terms of doing a lot of the coaching in the practice, not during the game. Talk to me about the value of routine and how you see that play out in your own life and perhaps how others could benefit from routine.

[00:08:26]
Tara VanDerveer: We’re wired to kind of know what to expect, and when you go to the gym, um, we go to practice. We have a routine for practice where we do what we call a warmup. We’ll do a little ball handling, we’ll do some individual work, get people going. And then we do a dynamic warmup. And during that dynamic warmup, I will walk around and high five each player. Like, Matt, how are you doing today? You know, how were your classes? And just connect with them on an individual kind of basis and then we’ll get together in a circle. We huddle up in a circle and I talk to them about these are our goals today. This is what we’re going to work on and let’s have a great day. Let’s have a great practice.

[00:09:01]
Matt Abrahams: I can see how routine helps. It gets people in the right headspace and gets them ready to go. You had mentioned something about watching highlight reels and then teaching tapes. What are your thoughts on feedback? Because I think a lot of people expect a coach to be very direct about the things they need to improve, but it sounds like praise or positive feedback is an essential part to your coaching philosophy. What do you think about that?

Tara VanDerveer: I definitely praise and positive feedback. My dad would always say, you get more bees with honey than vinegar. And I will tell you this, I was a head coach when I was twenty-three years old and I’d not really known anything but being a head coach. And something that really helped me was, as an adult, after the Olympic experience, I decided I wanted to learn how to play the piano. And I’d never played the piano before, so I thought I could teach myself. And after two weeks, I realized, I can’t do this. Have you ever played the piano?

Matt Abrahams: Not well, no. I’m still struggling with the guitar.

Tara VanDerveer: It’s hard.

Matt Abrahams: Yes, it is.

[00:09:53]
Tara VanDerveer: It’s really hard. But I got a great teacher. And what I learned within one year, I did a CD and then another CD and people said to me, oh my god, Tara, you’re good. And I’m like, no, I have a great teacher. And what I want to do as a coach is what my piano teacher did for me. Is to be able to take people to a place they can’t get to by themselves. And so through coaching, I want to help someone be, you know, the best player they can be. And I can’t do it by myself and they can’t do it by themselves, but as a team, I think we can do it.

And the relationship that I have with them, the trust that they feel, the fact that I care about them. And that’s an old coaching adage that players don’t care how much you know, they know how much you care. And to let them know that I’m here for you. I ask them to go up on the high wire and I’m their net. And as coaches, that’s what I try to do is be there for them, no matter what happens.

[00:10:46]
Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of coaches being a partner and a guide on the side as you go. And that’s a valuable way to look at leadership and management, I think, to help bring people to success. And focusing on the positive and the connection and getting to know the people you’re giving that feedback to, I think is a lesson we can all learn from.

In a New York Times interview you did with my colleague and friend and past guest, Glenn Kramon, you discussed the value of taking risks and experimenting. You just shared about learning to play the piano, which I think is a fantastic thing to take up. Can you share more about your thoughts on risk taking?

Tara VanDerveer: Well, probably the biggest risk I’ve ever taken is coming to Stanford. I left Ohio State team that was uh, a really top rated team with great recruits, but I wanted the challenge of coaching at a place that combined really excellence in the classroom and on the court. And this was probably the biggest career risk I’ve ever taken.

I think also leaving Stanford to coach the Olympic team, I had to resign from Stanford and I was coaching the Olympic team for a year, was a big risk. And then on the court, we really embraced the three point line. And we were one of the first teams to say, hey, shoot them up out there. Now you watch it, everyone’s shooting threes.

[00:12:02]
But in the old days, some coaches would penalize a team or a player if they took a three. So I am a little bit, in some ways, a little bit too risky sometimes. One time we put in a new offense over Christmas break before a big game, and we got blasted in that game. I had to shelve that offense, but we came back to that offense and won a national championship. So sometimes the risks don’t pan out the way you want them to.

[00:12:26]
Matt Abrahams: But it sounds like risk taking is part of who you are and has led to some great successes. But what I heard in that answer, especially at the end, was that you have to learn from the risks you take and make adjustments. And it sounds like you did that after that Christmas break and then refined it and came back and had benefit.

Tara VanDerveer: They’re reasonable risks. That one, the putting the offense in two weeks, I did it when my assistant coaches were gone. And I knew as soon as they came back and they said, that’s a stupid idea. I think that, um, you know, taking risks that are going to pay off, not wild swinging for the fence every time.

Matt Abrahams: I want to go back to something you said earlier about your job is to help your players not just get better at the game, but also to be better in life. How do you approach that dual role as a coach? Many leaders, many managers would benefit by helping their employees not just do better at their jobs, but be better in life. What are your thoughts on that? And are there certain things you look to do to help and maybe prioritize one over the other at certain times?

Tara VanDerveer: I think helping players be more successful on the court and more successful in their life go hand in hand. They are not two opposite things at all. I think my biggest success stories are helping young women mature and be great teammates. And a great teammate is someone that is unselfish, that is disciplined, uh, that is hardworking, that is encouraging other players, is happy for other people’s success. And these are things that are, I think, also, success stories beyond the court. Now, yes, we work on dribbling and shooting and defense and things like that, but it’s most important that they’re a great teammate. I think the biggest reward is to play on a team, not to have someone go out and have an individual great game.

[00:14:11]
Matt Abrahams: So focusing on everybody being connected and supporting each other helps everybody and all managers, all leaders can work to help foster that collaboration. It certainly sounds like your leadership style and your coaching style is values driven, and it sounds like you do a really good job of inculcating those values in your team.

I have a follow on question to this. A unique part of coaching at a college level is turnover. I mean, every several years you lose some of your players to maybe more basketball, maybe other things. Many managers have turnover in their organizations. How do you prepare for that? How do you create a process where new people coming in can quickly connect to the team that you already have? And how do you celebrate those who are leaving and the contributions they’ve made? In some ways, there’s a treadmill that you’re on constantly as a coach.

Tara VanDerveer: Well, I think first of all, we have, again, the routine. We have a banquet at the end of the year, which signals the end of this current season. And we do celebrate our seniors and our whole team and our staff and our coaches and our fans and we celebrate them. And then the next day we get on to the next year. And we meet and when we bring in new freshmen, we really work hard on onboarding them into what I call the Stanford way. This is how we do things at Stanford. We’re on time, we tuck our uniforms in, you know, shirts in, we take off jewelry. This is how we do it at Stanford.

And we encourage, and hopefully we have great leadership because they’ve learned from, as freshmen, they learned from the seniors. And that’s where it’s really key to have great leadership so that they learn the right way. And you’re hoping that you’re working really hard on communication so that in the locker room, after a really tough day, instead of complaining, they’re like, wow, this, that was a tough day, but we’re getting better. And the younger players learn from the older players and the older players learn from the players that have been before them or from the coaches.

[00:16:04]
Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of rituals and routines and the fact that you celebrate, you acknowledge, and then you move on. And equipping and empowering those who’ve been there longer to then help those who are coming can be really beneficial. So it’s not your job as the coach to do this, it’s the team’s job to do this in conjunction with you.

Tara VanDerveer: Well, one thing that one time we had, uh, a practice and one of my coaches, like five year old daughters was at practice and she was watching the practice and she’s a, you know, basketball player now. But after she said, mom, it was so exciting to hear the older players encourage and coach the younger players.

[00:16:39]
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. I have watched many of your games from the stands, and one of the things I noticed about your style is you seem eminently calm on the court, yet I know there’s a lot of emotion playing out. And I’m curious, how do you manage the emotions involved and stay calm and communicate effectively? And I’m looking to pull from your wisdom to share with those listening, because a lot of us in our work lives have a lot of emotion, and how can we stay calm, stay focused? Because you seem to be a master of that.

Tara VanDerveer: When you think of a great baseball hitter, they say to them that the ball slows down. And I think if you slow the game down instead of speeding it up with emotion, then your players can stay calm. I don’t feel that I would be as effective if I’m like a raving maniac on the sideline. And if I’m distracted with the officials, or if I’m worried about things I can’t control. So I can control my emotion and I try to keep that in check. And I want our team to keep it in check. I don’t want our team out there fouling the heck out of people, or getting technicals, or, you know, getting upset with themselves. I might be, what the heck are they doing? But I’m like, okay, you know, good job, stay with it. And that they then can let it go and get back right in it, have a short memory.

[00:17:55]
Matt Abrahams: Yes, exactly. I want to come back to that short memory. Two things that I’m taking away that I think a lot of us can think about is slowing things down. Emotion, as you said, speeds things up and we can take a breath. We can take a walk around the building. We can pause the meeting and come back. There are lots of ways to slow things down.

You were kind enough prior to us starting this conversation to ask about my experience with other coaches. And I shared with you an experience I had with one of my son’s coaches, a phenomenal kids coach. And one of the things he taught me, and I’ve actually included in my teaching and in the work I do, especially around spontaneous speaking, is this notion of next play. And you mentioned it in your own way there, where you say you have to have a short memory. Can you explain how you help people not ruminate? Because rumination can get in the way of what comes next. How do you coach somebody through that?

[00:18:43]
Tara VanDerveer: You know, I think our brains in some ways are wired to negativity. And so we, kind of just jump on mistakes. And like, I know as an example, even with my piano, that I would practice, practice, practice. I’d go down and give a recital and like one note, I would just remember that bad note.

And again, I think it’s really important that myself, my staff, other teammates are really positive. I’ve had players, like someone’s at the free throw line and we need this free throw and someone will miss it. And eventually I’ll, we love you. Making sure that everyone knows we’re here for you. And it’s not going to be life or death on the basketball court, but we want people to be successful and to encourage them.

And we have had some players that are really great at, it didn’t matter how many mistakes they made, they just kept playing hard. But, you know, just let it go, let it go. And my mom had a saying, be like a duck, let it roll off your back.

[00:19:35]
Matt Abrahams: So it’s perspective taking and staying focused on the goal. I know that equity between women’s and men’s sports is a really important issue for you. What tactics and things do you consider when trying to raise awareness and influence others to your point of view on this issue?

Tara VanDerveer: Well Matt, it probably started in my family where I’m one of five children and I have brother and three sisters. But when my parents served dinner, they didn’t serve hot dogs to the girls and steak to the boy. And I think that’s what we’ve experienced a lot in athletics is, uh, disparity between what women have gotten and what men have gotten. That is changing, thankfully. But even in the NCAA tournament in 2021, we were in San Antonio, the men were playing in Indianapolis and they had a bubble because it was during the pandemic.

And they showed the weight room for the men. It was this huge, expansive weight room. And they showed a little barbells for the women. And the NCAA was taken to task for that, which they should have. What upset me during that time was the fact that they actually were doing Antigen testing for the women and PCR testing for the men. And having been at Stanford, you know, the gold standard was PCR testing. And I think that’s something that we’re obviously working on. And we need allies. And it’s moms and dads. And, you know, just people supporting women and being fair to women.

Matt Abrahams: So, having a clear direction that you see and speaking up are the tools that you’ve used and you’ve been a great advocate for it. And thank you.

[00:21:07]
Tara VanDerveer: Well, thanks. One of the things though, at this final four that we were at, everyone wanted to talk about it. And I said to our team, no, we’re not talking about it now. We’re going to focus on winning the national championship, then we’ll talk about it. And if we’re a national champions, we have a better platform. So let’s win it first and we did.

Matt Abrahams: And that was incredibly exciting to watch. And again, it comes down to what we’ve talked about earlier, prioritizing and knowing when the right time is to do the work that needs to be done. Before we end, I’d like to ask three questions. One, I create just for you. And two, I’ve asked people all along. Are you up for that?

Tara VanDerveer: I am.

[00:21:39]
Matt Abrahams: Excellent. You recently, literally just today, uh, I learned of it, received the honor of having the basketball court in Maples Pavilion, where you have played as a coach for decades, named after you. You’re the first person I’ve ever known to have a court named after you. You’re holding court in your own court. This brings a question to me. First, congratulations. You have, over the course of your career, and especially recently upon your retirement, have received lots of accolades, lots of praise. For many of us, receiving praise can be hard to take. It can feel awkward and embarrassing.

And yet, I’ve seen you do it with just such delight and such politeness. Any advice or guidance on how to accept praise?

Tara VanDerveer: Well, first, I’m really excited about having a court named after me, and I’m really worried the first time I go there, I’ll probably just burst into tears. It’s an incredible honor and it’s pretty emotional, but, you know, I’ve received since winning the milestone game and retiring. I’ve gotten an incredible amount of emails and texts and, you know, people congratulating and I just know that it’s not ever just me. You know, I had great parents and a great family. I work with a terrific staff. I’ve coached great players and I look at basketball and like life, it’s a team game.

And I sometimes am the face of our team, but it’s not all about me. And I know that they’re congratulating everyone. And so I’m excited because that’s a great reflection on whether it’s my family or the team or university. And I’m very thankful for that. That’s a great reflection. But as far as how I feel about it, sometimes I will tell you quite honestly, I get a little embarrassed.

[00:23:17]
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think many of us can be very embarrassed when we’re singled out for successes. In some ways for me personally, it’s. It’s easier to take criticism than it is praise. But I think you gave us great insight into who you are when you said that the accolades, while you’re the face of them, represent the team. And I think that says a lot about who you are and how you approach not just coaching but life. I’d like to ask you question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

Tara VanDerveer: That is a really hard question, but can I tell you two?

Matt Abrahams: Sure.

[00:23:46]
Tara VanDerveer: The first person I’m going with is Marian Anderson. And I don’t know if you know that name, but she is, you have to go into the history books. She sang God Bless America at the Washington event where Martin Luther King gave his, I Have a Dream speech. And she also, I go to Chautauqua, New York, which is a place where you have speakers and music. And she sang. And I got goosebumps. She communicated to me just an amazing emotion that I’ve never forgotten since I was like ten years old. She was a civil rights leader in her way of singing and she was not allowed as a black woman to sing in the United States. She had to go to Europe, but she came back and just an amazing voice that really helped me just feel this, like you could feel it resonate inside your body.

And then the second person, it was also a physical reaction to, you’ll get a kick out of this one, Jerry Seinfeld, who I got a chance to go to a Stanford event that was fundraising at the hospital, he had me laughing so hard. I’m like, this man is communicating. So, uh, those are my two favorites.

Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to me that in both those instances, it’s about a physical, emotional response that they were able to bring about in you. And I don’t know what my expectations were for your answer to this question, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a singer and a comedian.

Tara VanDerveer: I just thought, well, these people really spoke to me in a different way.

[00:25:10]
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing. Final question for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

Tara VanDerveer: I think communicating is exchanging, and I would say it starts, number one, with listening. So that I understand you, where you’re coming from, what messages we can exchange. And then if I’m speaking or communicating with you, it’s having a message that is valuable to you, knowledge, you know, something that you’re going to value. And then also making sure that the message is clear, that I’m not just rambling on, but it’s concise and there’s clarity.

[00:25:50]
Matt Abrahams: So listening, we hear that a lot in response to this answer, and it’s nice to add your voice to that chorus. And again, as a coach, at least in my mind, I see coaches as people who are speaking all the time. And it’s delightful to hear that a coaching philosophy, a leadership philosophy can start with listening. Having a clear message and making sure that message is focused. What a great recipe. Tara, this has been fantastic. Your values-led leadership, your success as a result of that.

Thank you for sharing. It has been a delight, not just to talk to you, but over all the years I’ve been affiliated with Stanford, watching your career and your success. Thank you.

Tara VanDerveer: Thank you, Matt.

[00:26:30]
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about how to create a strong leadership presence, listen to episode 102 with Muriel Wilkins and episode 35 with Jeff Immelt.

This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, Aech Ashe, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out FasterSmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.