Masterclass on Stanford’s Most Popular Leadership Course

Full Transcript

Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.

(00:03)
Collins Dobbs: Almost all of us get defensive when we get feedback, so I just want to name it, all right? So part of naming it is saying, okay, so from that place where you may feel defensive, how do we get to a place of equanimity and not focus on either who said it or the places that you might feel judged, but can we get to a place of curiosity.

(00:32)
Darius Teter: Welcome to Grit & Growth from Stanford Graduate School of Business, the podcast where Africa and Asia’s intrepid entrepreneurs share their trials and triumphs with insights from Stanford faculty and global experts on how to tackle challenges and grow your business. I’m your host, Darius Teter, the executive director of Stanford Seed. A lot of future leaders start here at Stanford and one of the people they’re likely to meet at the Graduate School of Business is my next guest.

(01:05)
Collins Dobbs: My name is Collins Dobbs. I’m a lecturer here at the GSB, and I teach a number of courses in leadership and interpersonal dynamics.

(01:13)
Darius Teter: With a background in executive coaching, Collins has worked with senior leaders across industries to help them navigate complex team dynamics and enhance their own emotional intelligence. He’s also a key figure in teaching Stanford’s renowned course, Interpersonal Dynamics, more commonly called “Touchy-Feely.” “Touchy-Feely” has been the most popular course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for over two decades, and Collins is one of the reasons why. Today we’re talking about the human side of leadership. We’re going to discuss what it takes to create a culture where people can give honest feedback, but also they can receive honest feedback, even if it’s quite critical. We’ll unlock the tools and tactics to lead more authentically and effectively no matter where you are in your leadership journey.

(02:05)
Collins Dobbs: So interpersonal dynamics is really based upon anytime we come into contact with others, and so it’s very much in terms of our work life and our personal life in all aspects. And so a lot of students are drawn to it because that’s something that we need throughout our entire lives and to figure out how we work better with others and know ourselves better as well.

(02:27)
Darius Teter: You use the word leadership when you’re describing some of the things you teach and I think you’re also coaching.

(02:32)
Collins Dobbs: I do. I’m an executive coach as well.

(02:34)
Darius Teter: As an executive coach, when you think about the dynamics of how we interact with others, what do you see as a classic challenge senior executives are facing in terms of how they interact with peers, with people that work for them?

(02:49)
Collins Dobbs: Well, I would say one pretty common dilemma is, often, the higher executives go, the less useful information they get. And so part of that has to do with the fact that often they’re thinking about a broader vision that they see and they don’t have an opportunity and peers to really think through that with. People often want to perform for executives, so oftentimes they’re not getting authentic feedback in terms of how they’re showing up or their messaging. So that can culminate in them feeling quite lonely in terms of really understanding how they’re really impacting others.

(03:24)
Darius Teter: And how the business is really doing. I interviewed Professor Sarah Soule and she talks about one of the most valuable things about creating safe spaces for your staff is that that’s how you get the bad news.

(03:35)
Collins Dobbs: So oftentimes as leaders, we talk about leaders are signal generators and culture creators, and as Sarah said, oftentimes it’s not obvious and we often think about our leaders — often think about they’re doing a wonderful job from what they can see, and the question is how can you create those hooks or handles or spheres that people can actually come in, or channels, that people can come in and deliver sometimes unpleasant information. The other part that leaders deal with sometimes through 360s or other performance appraisals is how to not come across as defensive, right? Because very often, once leaders get bad news, the question is — people are often looking at, so is the leader open to be influenced by that information or is there a defensiveness? Because typically if a leader is open to be influenced and to make change, they’ll get more. The opposite is also true. If a leader doesn’t take that into heart or doesn’t communicate to people that they really value their feedback, people begin to shut down.

(04:36)
Darius Teter: You used the phrase “leaders are signal generators.” Can you say a bit more about that? I haven’t heard that term.

(04:43)
Collins Dobbs: Yeah. So, very often people come into organizations, and this is also true in our personal life, but in organizations trying to figure out what does success look like around here? And some of it is written down, but a lot of it is not.

(04:57)
Darius Teter: So imagine I’m coming into a big company, am I trying to figure out how will I be successful? Or is that the same as: What does success look like here?

(05:06)
Collins Dobbs: So when I think about leaders being signal generators, there are signals around: How can I be successful in this organization? I can look at the vision, mission, strategies, and understand what’s on paper, but often when it comes to leadership or interpersonal dynamics or how to have influence in the organization, very often people are looking for leaders. How do they navigate in the good times, but also in the challenging times? Are they open to innovation? Are they open to ideas? Are they open to creating opportunities for success and failure? And so that’s a big job of leaders to generate those signals to say, it’s okay, we welcome mistakes and risks as long as we learn from them and fix them going forward. Those are important signals.

(05:56)
Darius Teter: As a leader, you’re always on stage whether you like it or not, but are you aware of how you’re coming across? Because people will wonder: How did you get to be the boss? And some of them will try to mimic or adopt your approaches and your behaviors. So are you modeling what you want to see in your team? And this is especially important when it comes to difficult conversations.

(06:20)
Collins Dobbs: So one of the foundations of the Interpersonal Dynamics class is being open to giving and receiving feedback. So we talk a lot about that, and we start with that thinking from a base of: we come in and we have thoughts. And often underneath those thoughts are feelings. And so while the thoughts sometimes say what’s important to us, oftentimes the feelings signal how important they are. And those are really important parts of conversations and feedback. So part of what we try to help the students open up to is understanding both their thoughts and their feelings to themselves and then, as they interact with each other, understanding their intentions. But what’s the impact of the behavior? What’s the impact and what comes up for them and what comes up for others as well? And then once you have that conversation, if you are moving in a direction how to forward what’s working well, but also how to repair when it doesn’t go well, and that requires some patience and some space with each other and some grace.

(07:23)
Darius Teter: I’m still reflecting on the comment you made about: we have our thoughts which we express with our words and with our body language, but underneath those thoughts are our feelings. I suspect that I would really suck at naming those feelings. Is that common?

(07:38)
Collins Dobbs: It is. It often is common, because very often we’re rewarded for our problem solving, how quickly we figure things out, and the speed in which we do it, and optimizing for that. So in some ways it’s just creating space and legitimizing the feelings. And so what we create is a space and we actually have a sheet of a number of feelings that we introduce to students, and we’ll have activities that allow them to have activities and then to do some reflection in the moment and with each other to notice what are the feelings coming up in this situation? How do we talk about these feelings? And sometimes there are facilitators in the room who might stop an interaction and say, “So I’m hearing a thought behind or a wish, but I haven’t yet heard the feeling underneath that. Would you be willing to share that?” And that often helps take the conversation to a much more meaningful, a deeper, level, and gets a little bit closer to the values that are underneath the interaction.

(08:34)
Darius Teter: What are some of the choices on the “how am I feeling” list? I’m just dying to know — is it like angry, sad, happy? Is it as simple as that? Or —

(08:43)
Collins Dobbs: Great question. So there’s a baseline of feelings, angry, sad, happy. So there’s a baseline of feelings and then there are many other feelings that might approximate that. So I think there’s something like 40 different types of feelings. I’m annoyed, I’m angry, I’m excited, I’m happy, I’m feeling joy, I’m feeling reflective, I’m feeling confused.

(09:03)
Darius Teter: How about insecure?

(09:04)
Collins Dobbs: Insecure is definitely one of the feelings that’s on there. I feel vulnerable. And so sometimes just being aware that I have a choice of a lot of feelings and often what happens is I can be feeling more than one feeling at a time. And I think we legitimize that. And so sometimes we’ll look at — I’m feeling some excitement for this moment. I think I’m learning something, but I also am feeling a little bit of concern because if we have this conversation, I want to grow our relationship, but I’m concerned that if it doesn’t go well that we might ruin it as well. So I’m conflicted. And so honoring the fact that feelings come like that and can we tease that apart and honor the range of feelings.

(09:46)
Darius Teter: But what about when it comes to repairing relationships? Is it about reframing how you feel or just understanding why you’re reacting that way?

(09:54)
Collins Dobbs: I think part of it is first acknowledging what it is that I’m feeling, and in some ways it’s getting accurate data.

(10:00)
And then we figure out in the moment what we do with that. It might be the case where, wow, that was really helpful to even know this was going on. I might need to take a moment and figure out what’s the next step and maybe revisit from there. So that might be a step. Sometimes the step is, “I had no idea that all of this was going on.” I think what’s most important for me is that we address this feeling. It’s really — even though I have some fear that this relationship may be ruptured a bit, what’s more important is that we invest in each other because we’re going to be working together or as classmates for a longer period of time. Would you be willing to go a little further and see if we can figure out how to best work together in the future?

(10:48)
Darius Teter: You’ve said before that communication is a team sport. What does that mean?

(10:53)
Collins Dobbs: Yeah, and when people think about communication, they think about themself and am I articulating, am I saying the exact right word? Do I have the executive presence? But as it turns out, as leaders and people in organizations, a lot of communications — people get impressions of me based upon their interactions with me, but also based upon what others say their interaction with me was. So part of when we think about a team sport, it’s part of how I’m impacting others. And also if it’s a one-on-one interaction, I know again what I’m intending to say and the words that I’m using. What I don’t know is: What’s the impact, what you’re hearing? So part of what I need to do is to be curious and say, “So Darius, that’s what I said. What’s the impact of what I said on you?”

(11:40)
Darius Teter: So how does that play out?

(11:42)
Collins Dobbs: So it starts the conversation and oftentimes when a person reflects back at least what they heard or, more importantly, the impact of what I said to them, there’s usually some distortion in there somewhere and I can say, oh, I didn’t really mean — that wasn’t my intention. Let me start over and say what I really had hoped to do was X. Given that I heard that that was the impact, though, I either apologize and want to repair to make sure that you know that wasn’t my intention, figure out something to do differently, and how might I do things differently going forward to make sure I’m having the intent that I want? And you do the same. So it’s a mutual conversation. So when I say it’s a team sport, it’s not a one-way speech as much as it is, it’s a two- or multiple-person engagement to co-create what we want to create going forward.

(12:38)
Darius Teter: This reminds me of something Collins said earlier in our conversation: our thoughts come out as words, but underneath there’s feelings. So when you get tough feedback, of course it feels bad. That’s totally normal. The question is, can you acknowledge those feelings? Consider what could you do with that feedback before you open your mouth?

(12:57)
Collins Dobbs: One of the first things I say, which is true, almost all of us get defensive when we get feedback. So I just want to name it. So part of naming it is saying, okay, so from that place where you may feel defensive, how do we get to a place of equanimity and not focus on either who said it or how the places that you might feel judged, but can we get to a place of curiosity? A question I often come up with is: Was this surprising to you? Oh, it sounds like this one surprised you, this one you’ve heard a number of times, this one … Okay, so of that, what’s one thing? What’s one thing if you were going to look at it that you feel really curious about learning more about? So what I try to do is to convert the state from being, “I feel judged, I feel hurt, I feel,” to “Can I learn something here?” Because that is a calming effect, but it also is a moving forward effect, and that’s a way to loosen up the defensiveness and then to move forward.

(14:03)
Darius Teter: We did a podcast episode a couple years ago about leading through crisis and my assumption was that being vulnerable and authentic was always the right emotion. And I think it was Brian Lowery that said, well, sometimes you just need to be the leader that they need you to be, even if you’re faking it, because you’re on a burning platform, and everyone is looking for you to reassure them, and you might feel like, oh crap, we are doomed. But that’s not a time to be authentic.

(14:34)
Collins Dobbs: So I agree with that. I agree with it in this way. I think that is vulnerable. I think that is authentic. So one of the things that is important is I think I talk a lot about — we have a portfolio of feelings, but we also have a portfolio of roles that we’re playing, and depending on the situation determines which aspect of the portfolio that I lean into. So crisis is one, right? What people need to know is someone’s in control and their safety, and I think that’s very authentic too because one of the things that we talk about is we have a range of emotions, but declaring all those emotions at the same time, it’s not useful. So one is knowing I have a range. The second part that’s really important is to know I have a choice. So given this range of emotions, given the situation, how do I make a choice about what fits the situation?

(15:28)
Darius Teter: Leadership isn’t just about having all the answers. Often it’s about navigating the unknown when the future is murky, when markets are shifting, when strategic changes are needed.

(15:38)
Collins Dobbs: A piece of leadership, candidly, is — it’s about stepping into the not knowing. It’s a lot of — great management is about setting tools and setting predictability, and that’s very important. That’s where the rewards come from. And very often people’s sense of professional identity comes from being that problem solver. But a piece of leadership is about: What do I do in the not knowing when the markets are changing? I don’t know exactly what I need to do when staffs change, when skills change, when social media, these big things happen. That’s part of leadership and part of it is a willingness to stand in the unknowing and a trust in oneself and others that we can figure it out and it can be a pretty scary place. Oftentimes we’re not the only ones who don’t know, and what happens is if we can share some of that, not saying, I have no idea, I’ve never seen this before. It’s not that, but there’s a version of this is both challenging and there’s an opportunity in here, we just haven’t yet figured it out. So it’s the growth mindset. One of the things that I think is important is to honor that it’s a dynamic process. I think sometimes these concepts get presented as stagnant or either/or. You’re either managing or leading or you’re either winning or losing. And it usually isn’t that. There’s a dynamic nature of sometimes you take a firmer stand, sometimes you take a more dynamic stance, and then sometimes you have to adapt when we don’t know.

(17:14)
Darius Teter: And having the right support system is key.

(17:17)
Collins Dobbs: I think peer groups are tremendously important. And then if it’s a CEO roundtable or if it’s a group of alumni, classmates or whomever, do you have a circle of people who you can think about with this? It doesn’t have any vulnerability but some grain of truth that is not safe enough to share with your staff. Somewhere you can really be authentic to really get this out and flesh this out because you’re not alone.

(17:43)
Darius Teter: Oh man, I’m 100 percent with you. It’s not just about networking for material gain, but it’s about pure exchange. You used another term which I wanted to explore a little bit: “space, pace, and grace in leadership.” Can you walk me through that?

(18:02)
Collins Dobbs: I’ve spoken about space, pace, and grace before. I think in general — in college I played basketball and we talked a lot about spacing the floor, creating space to really be able to run the play in some ways. And then the pace, are you running, are you slowing down? How do you adjust to the defenses that you’re getting? And so I see a lot of that when it comes to leadership, interpersonal dynamics, in which a lot of the spacing — is the canvas that you’re working with large enough? So oftentimes situations get approached with what can seem like a fairly narrow canvas of what’s possible, win, lose, or we haven’t yet considered what’s possible. So oftentimes the spacing is: Can you talk about what are the options here? What are the options of success? What are the options that we’ve not yet explored? So there’s something about space in that domain, in that dimension. So we’re giving ourselves the maximum amount of opportunities to move forward or to create.

(19:03)
Darius Teter: So that could be in terms of: What is our business strategy? Am I actually open to unexpected possibilities and opportunities? But I guess it more frequently could apply to interpersonal dynamics, which is: I’ve already pigeonholed you as an arrogant SOB, and that’s who you are, and you’ve pigeonholed me as a defensive jerk. And can we give ourselves the space to imagine that there might be more to each of us, right? Sorry, I put that whole thing negative, which is really funny. But —

(19:38)
Collins Dobbs: What I love about the concept is that’s, I guess, the conversation, right? It can start off, it doesn’t feel negative to me. That is an example. What space do we give ourselves to navigate a better relationship or another relationship? And I chose one in which I talk about expanding. There’s another part of space which as well is sometimes we know someone for a long period of time and we talk about a lot of things, but what we never talk about is what really matters? What’s the one or two things that really matter? So part of space is —

(20:12)
Darius Teter: You’re describing all my friendships. I’m really worried!

(20:17)
Collins Dobbs: So part of space can actually be like: How do we narrow the space to really get clear on what we want to talk about? So that’s the space piece. What I would say … pace … when it comes to, I’ll say interpersonal dynamics, oftentimes we come at that differently because we have different backgrounds. Some people really approach a new or an ongoing relationship and they’re very friendly. They really want to have not only a personal relationship, they want to have a professional relationship and they want to do a lot of brainstorming, some version of that. Others might approach it at a very different pace. I’m not quite sure I want that. I’m not quite sure I need all of that. I’m not quite sure that this is moving in a way, or we’ve known each other for quite a while and we’re about to tackle this issue.

(20:59)
When I come to conflict, I come at it a little bit more slowly. I need to do some analysis, I need to do some space. Other people say it’s on the table, I’m a direct person, I need to know it all right now, get it done, get it over with. So there are things in terms of the pacing in which we’re communicating, how do we check in over time? And to say my question earlier, how is this going for you? Darius, you check in with me: “So, Collins, I know we’ve covered a lot of ground. I just want to repeat where I think we are so far, is that where you’re at? What else do we have just to figure out? Are we co-creating a pace that works for both of us where sometimes that’s about speeding up? Sometimes it’s about slowing down.” But what I most care about when you talk about pace is make sure we’re running the same play at the same time and talking about the same issues and we’re digesting it together.

(21:47)
Darius Teter: Okay, now let’s add grace.

(21:49)
Collins Dobbs: We’re dealing with human beings after all, right? Often people are much more critical of their own performance than others ever can be. They see their actions through their own intentions very often. So they’re quite surprised and distressed. So the first part of grace is to remind people to have self-compassion and grace with themselves in terms of not being perfect. You’re going to get feedback or you’re going to get reactions that may feel disconfirming to your intentions. And one of the things that can be really helpful is some people feel like if I really am hard on myself, that will push me to be better the next time. There’s another part that sometimes happens as well, is sometimes when we’re so hard on ourselves, we don’t have the energy around curiosity, we don’t have the energy around trying again, it just feels too hard or too painful to try again.

(22:42)
So what I try to open up as a coach are avenues for what’s next, what’s the next win? Having worked in sales before, it is the psychology, so you’re ready to go out again. As a coach, that’s the goal, to get back out there in a healthy way. So the one metaphor I would use, having played basketball, being a shooting guard, right? It’s like can you imagine Steph Curry taking two shots, missing the first two shots and saying, “I’m not shooting anymore. I’m off tonight.” Oh, the next one’s more likely to go in. If that one doesn’t, the next one will, right? It’s the kind of energy, what I think is winning energy. I think you lean into that energy and I think we have that in ourselves because most of us, all of us have some accomplishments that we can lean on. So it’s just really finding that. I read a book, I’m forgetting the authors at the moment, but their premise is: if you’re in a business, personal relationship for any period of time, the question is not if you will betray the other.

(23:43)
The question is when you betray the other, what do you do? And so part of that — it was a bit jarring because, people, I’m not betraying — and what their premise is, is you don’t think — your intention probably wasn’t to betray, but at some point others will feel somehow that they had some degree of understanding and they feel betrayed. So part of that is if you can have grace with yourself and grace with the other person that you’re not perfect. How do we repair? In a class, we call it repair, right? In the Interpersonal Dynamics class, which is — we’re at a point in time, can we pause, can we create an understanding, can we see where we’re missing expectations of each other? Can we state what those expectations are, and then can we make a plan in terms of how we’re willing to work together to meet that? Including if I go off track again, you don’t only have permission to give feedback, I welcome it. I am invested in this relationship. I need you to give me that feedback, right? Because that way I will feel better about this relationship. I’ll feel more invested and vice versa.

(24:55)
Darius Teter: Another framework that Collins and I discussed is called the AIR model, AIR, where A is for action, the I is for impact, and the R is request.

(25:07)
Collins Dobbs: The A is action. And so very often going into a feedback session to clearly articulate the action or behavior, the action that you saw the other person take. So if a person was about to have a feedback session, if I’m talking to an executive and they’re going to use the AIR model, I would say, so what you might say is, Darius, when we were working together last Thursday, I noticed that you came in five minutes late and we just dove in and I don’t know that I was prepared. We didn’t really state the goals of the meeting. What I noticed was I was not only thrown off and not having expectations, but I felt myself a little annoyed because I didn’t even know why and just — I don’t know if I felt my time was respected, I was rushing through going forward, what would help me get ready is to receive a text or something.

(26:05)
Just say I’m running five minutes late, if there’s something you need to do, to start without me or something else. That would be the R in your head. You might say, Collins, we’ve worked together a thousand times. I’ve done this before. We usually kind of pick up and run, but if I can say that to you, at least now you have real data. You say, okay, Collins, I hear that request. You might say, okay, I’ll do that. Or you might say a version of, Collins, we’ve worked together so many times, I’m curious why that was so important for you this time and that hasn’t been in the past and I might say, you don’t know. I got students I’m working with. I got this final, I’m really pressed for time. I have to go to the airport. So then it’s not just the single point of the incident, there’s other things that are going on.

(26:48)
Darius Teter: We rarely know what’s really going on in people’s lives outside of work, and it’s usually not even appropriate to ask. But it’s those things that are happening outside the office, it’s that context that often colors their behavior in the office. Just being aware of this hidden context is a really important element of leadership.

(27:05)
Collins Dobbs: If I were to say, or the person was to say, all of these things are going on, that’s why I’m freaked out. On the other side, if what a person could say is, Hey, you’re being too defensive. Come on, we’ve done this a million times, kind of get over it, it doesn’t mean anything. It’s the micro moment. That’s those micro moments that aren’t obvious. But if a response could be, wow, I didn’t know that was going on. I mean in addition to being late, I wonder if there’s anything else I can do for you as you’re at it, as you get on the flight, is there anything or anything else that’s an opening, it sends a signal. Those are the signals that we’re talking about around grace for me, for what’s going on for me, not just this meeting because my reaction isn’t about really this five minutes late you’re in a meeting. It’s about all these other pressures. It’s a great example of these micro moments when we can demonstrate grace, often happen not in a planned way, but it’s in these other ways to get to know what’s going on for each other. One of the beauties I think of interpersonal dynamics is the imperfection of it.

(28:11)
Darius Teter: As leaders, we’re perfectionists, we’re judged by very straightforward metrics of achievement by sales, by KPIs. But as technology accelerates the way in which we get things done and how we communicate, it actually becomes even more important to focus on interpersonal dynamics for which there is no perfect solution.

(28:35)
Collins Dobbs: Leaders, we get paid to do things, to produce results. If it’s not perfect to perform, to achieve, like we’re all in this mode and it almost is: I don’t have time for the imperfection of it. Give me technology to perfect it so therefore I can be on doing what I’m doing. That is also important. So for me, it’s not the “or,” it’s the “and” piece. And that’s what really fascinates me. If I think to create an “or” to say, no, I’m going to take you away from your sales results. I’m going to take you away from your inventory results. I’m going to take you away from your investment to do this, then it’s a lose. What I’m interested in is the “and” piece, is what’s the cost, and then what’s the added benefit of, in addition, the engagement of the human dynamic and the culture.

(29:31)
And very much in my mind, leadership culture is really defined by what people do when you’re not in the room and you have to, in some ways, have some resonance with people, so they’re going to be doing the things that you want them to do when you’re not in the room. But without some sense of connection or some resonance with you, you can’t really influence it very much. And so that really continues to fascinate me and I think it will continue to be in some ways, I don’t know if I’m biased, but I certainly have strong feelings about this. I think that this work is even more important. It’s at least as important as it’s ever been, and it’s in some ways more important. As we continue to optimize for efficiency, how do we also make sure that we’re building those connections? Because if we’re not careful, we slowly become more and more disconnected.

(30:19)
Darius Teter: Thanks so much, Collins.

(30:20)
Collins Dobbs: Thank you, Darius. Great to be in conversation with you.

(30:29)
Darius Teter: This sounds obvious, but even as I say it, it’s not. Leadership isn’t just about being in charge or having all the answers. It’s about connection. It’s about creating space for real conversations with real people, understanding where others are coming from and being clear enough to ask for what you really need. So if you want to lead effectively, you’ve got to get comfortable with those kinds of conversations. So let me give you a little challenge. As you go back to your business today, think about one thing you could do to make space for more honest feedback. It could be as simple as asking one of your team members how they really feel about a recent decision. But make sure you’re open to the answer because leadership starts with those small intentional conversations. I would like to thank Collins Dobbs, not just for sharing his time today, but for opening up about the deeper challenges of leadership in human connection. Erika Amoako-Agyei and VeAnne Virgin researched and developed content for this episode. Kendra Gladych is our production coordinator, and our executive producer is Tiffany Steeves, with writing and production from Nathan Tower and sound design and mixing by Ben Crannell at Lower Street Media. Until next time, I’m Darius Teter, and this has been Grit & Growth. Thank you for listening.